Curse

sly_1 · Jun 17, 2005, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by salja Wachi

ok well first of all you are not a monk. you have some secondary healing spells but that is about it.

you are an ele so stay that way.

An e/mo specced to healing can heal longer, as opposed to healing for more per heal. It's a six of one, half dozen of the other situation. In some situations a monk primary will be better, in other situations an e/mo will be better. But suggesting an e/mo can't be an effective healer is just plain wrong.

I've been in difficult areas like underworld or fissure without a monk primary and done quite well. Granted a monk primary is welcome in those areas, but far from necessary.

Now if you depart from healing and start getting into prot the e/mo really shines. An e/mo with protection can typically chain cast until the end of the battle, usually regarldess of the number of foes. This often more than offsets the piddly little 30ish heal you get from a rimary monk's prot spells, especially in a long and difficult battle when the primary monk runs out of energy 1/2 way through.

Having a "stick to your primary profession" mentality is overly restrictive and results in missing out on many effective builds. But hey, whatever floats your boat, I'll continue doing better than most with "bad" combos and skills

Taphoo · Jun 17, 2005, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keesa

I wish sometimes I could just get these two questions answered...

"Who is the primary tank?"
"Who is pulling and calling targets?"

/sigh

and....

Is EVERYONE carrying their Rez Signet? Not you, Monk

Padre · Jun 17, 2005, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

A lot of people claim that spells like Aegis or whatever are the best skills for a monk - yet (IMO) healing seed is by far the best.

Check out mark of protection if you like healing seed

Nothing like a persistant Reversal of Fortune to keep a dumb w/mo alive who's charged ahead.

Keesa · Jun 17, 2005, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lovag

If I see this I just hit the kick command

Hey, that's cool.

I'd rather have you kick me than go into a mission with a group who can't take five minutes to coordinate skills. I think it's a bit presumptuous to assume your skillbar can't be tweaked and improved for each individual group with a little bit of communication.

Keesa · Jun 17, 2005, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Padre

Check out mark of protection if you like healing seed

Nothing like a persistant Reversal of Fortune to keep a dumb w/mo alive who's charged ahead.

I prefer Protective Spirit to Mark of Protection because it doesn't nuke my other prot skills and has a faster recharge. But that's a matter of style probably. I am also a BIG fan of Reversal of Fortune.

Shielding hands, otoh, makes me a sad panda.

Maybe I just haven't found an effective combination of skills to justify its presence on my bar...

jray14 · Jun 17, 2005, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Entropius

Why don't people take 60 seconds to talk in town and plan?

Back on topic for a moment again...
IMHO the explanation for this is simple: the majority of players are single-mindedly driven towards "beating the game." (Well, that and getting uber loot). If I only had a nickel for every time I've seen someone spamming "where's the next town?!?!" To each his/her own, but it's just too bad that these people aren't seeing the forest for the trees. I've made my best memories on days where it took 3 hours just to get around some corner in the Crystal Desert when everyone had 60% DP.

On a similar note, the majority of players, and many of the posters in this thread, seem to be stuck in the mindset that a character's primary profession is more important than secondary. But E/Mo's can be just as competent as Mo/X's as primary healers, Me/E's can nuke just as well as E/X's, and a Mo/R just might be an excellent trapper that eliminates the need for heavy-duting healing in the first place.

The convention that I've found most successful is to seek players that announce their roles rather than their professions: "support healer LFG," "nuker LFG," "ranger with winter LFG," etc. I don't even pay attention to their professions (unless I notice something especially peculiar, such as a W/R claiming to be "primary healer"). And I have never regretted using this convention.

BTW, I got through all the Ring of Fire missions just fine without any monks. I simply announced "Group with BOTH healer henchies LF more!" I found that people who responded to that kind of silliness were more mature players with keen strategy and a fun sense of humor that motivated the entire group. And if you learn how to protect your healer henchies, they are astonishingly good.

Entropius · Jun 17, 2005, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Why is healing seed not usable by a secondary monk?

Incidentally, I was just in a group (in the Life Bond/Balthazar's Spirit setup) that did the steal-the-sceptre mission. 2 guys dropped early, so we were down to 4.

So we had some fun. I put Life Bond on the other 3 and Balthazar's on myself, and it went pretty well -- I got mana back whenever anyone got hit, and we dealt with mobs.

Then the monk got the bright idea to Healing Seed me, and we stood in a clump.

Whenever anyone got hit, they only took half damage, I got a point of energy, and we all got healed for 26.

Keesa · Jun 17, 2005, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Entropius

Why is healing seed not usable by a secondary monk?

Incidentally, I was just in a group (in the Life Bond/Balthazar's Spirit setup) that did the steal-the-sceptre mission. 2 guys dropped early, so we were down to 4.

So we had some fun. I put Life Bond on the other 3 and Balthazar's on myself, and it went pretty well -- I got mana back whenever anyone got hit, and we dealt with mobs.

Then the monk got the bright idea to Healing Seed me, and we stood in a clump.

Whenever anyone got hit, they only took half damage, I got a point of energy, and we all got healed for 26.

Kinda thought you'd like it. My guild elmo's and I have great fun.

Eclair · Jun 17, 2005, 05:28 PM // 17:28

However, MoP lasts 10 seconds with a 45 second cooldown. Not all that useful IMO.

newtrip · Jun 17, 2005, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by salja Wachi

lol i never said he cannot heal.

sure he can heal a bit without question. i usually bring a monk spell or 2 with me as well for emergencies, and rezzing, however later on in the game there os no way he can try to be a primary healer without the healing bonus. especially if there are no other monks in the group.

when the group becomes 8 people there is no way in the world he can keep up.

cause he can "spam" healing more than any other cause of his energy bonus, his heals are much less powerful cause he does not have the healing bonus. when you have a group of 8 and all are poisoned and bleeding with mobs everywhere that group is going down fast

Haha.. Dude I don't think you really know what you're talking about. Was in a group last night with 4 E/Mo's, a ranger, 2 warriors and a mes that went to the UnderWorld and we cleaned up in that place. Oh yeah. We had NO monk and we were kicking ass. The Underworld is about as tough as it gets. The E/Mo's were able to heal the whole group just fine while still being able to put out some major damage.

ArturoB · Jun 17, 2005, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

The BAD part about healing seed is that it is dependent on your healing attribute, and isn't useful at all by secondary professions, and thus it's overlooked too much. Without a high healing attribute, it runs out way too fast, and it takes too long to recharge. But in a monk's hands, it's an essential part of their arsenal of healing skills.

This is not true. Healing seed is quite good at 12 healing, and in fact most monks should not even be exceeding 14 healing as to put on a superior rune is such a big hp hit that they die far too easily when they grab agro.

There's no doubt it's an incredible spell, but to say that it's primary monk only is not accurate. I have both el and mo mains well past ascension, and to be honest I find seed more usable as an el due to my higher pool, and lower relative loss that 15 energy is versus a 45 energy monk, particulaly later in battles, even with peace and harmony and a necro for ritual.

asdar · Jun 17, 2005, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Well, back to the original post.

I've started making my own groups and advertising with, "Forming a group for XXX mission, this is going to be a slow group that will communicate"

It gets rid of a lot of the rushers.

I'm a monk so it's a little easier for me to get a group formed up that way but I think it'll work for everyone.

My problem is kinda like yours. When I get to a new town I usually spend some time with Hench before I move on. I like to unlock all the map and I'm in no hurry. When I come back in and am ready to join a group I need to add res to my skill lineup and swap out my skills the dish damage or give me speed for ones that heal the group.

btw, I love El/Mo's as healers, heck they have 70+ energy. The only real difference is they have to plan a little further ahead than a primary Mo's to make up for the smaller size of their heals.

Keesa · Jun 17, 2005, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by asdar

Well, back to the original post.

btw, I love El/Mo's as healers, heck they have 70+ energy. The only real difference is they have to plan a little further ahead than a primary Mo's to make up for the smaller size of their heals.

Or... they take some nifty protection/ward/hex removal spells and help the primary monk not have to heal nearly so often or so much...

Zixax · Jun 17, 2005, 05:47 PM // 17:47

An Ele with high energy storage with a monk secondary are good healers. Divine Favor makes a difference, but so does having 80+ energy.

I suppose based on your post that you don't even pick a secondary profession... why bother?

dansamy · Jun 17, 2005, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by salja Wachi

ok well first of all you are not a monk. you have some secondary healing spells but that is about it.

you are an ele so stay that way.

You obviously haven't been in any of the groups where my El/Mo was the only healer. Ele/Mo can make a great healer if played properly.

dansamy · Jun 17, 2005, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by salja Wachi

I do not know how far you are into the game, but i will tell you this much my friend.

in the later missions without the healing bonus you will never be able to heal enough to be effective unless you put all your attributes into it, (in which case you might as well make a monk primary character)

LMAO! I was our party's only healer for the entire Fire Islands quests and missions! And since we finished the game that night and had no dp, I guess I did just fine, huh?

Mimi Miyagi · Jun 17, 2005, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArturoB

This is not true. Healing seed is quite good at 12 healing, and in fact most monks should not even be exceeding 14 healing as to put on a superior rune is such a big hp hit that they die far too easily when they grab agro.

There's no doubt it's an incredible spell, but to say that it's primary monk only is not accurate. I have both el and mo mains well past ascension, and to be honest I find seed more usable as an el due to my higher pool, and lower relative loss that 15 energy is versus a 45 energy monk, particulaly later in battles, even with peace and harmony and a necro for ritual.

What I meant by "high" I meant your standard 12-14 range. Healing Seed will not last long enough if you are primarily a Elementalist with a few points in Healing. The 25 second recharge time is an eternity if it expired 10 seconds after you cast it. Kind of pointless to use the skill if it's unavailable to you over half the time. With proper equipment (faster recharge time, etc) you can actually have another Healing Seed ready before the first wears off. There have been countless battles I've been in as a monk that has sat around twiddling my thumbs as one Healing Seed did all of the work.

Eclair · Jun 17, 2005, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

What I meant by "high" I meant your standard 12-14 range. Healing Seed will not last long enough if you are primarily a Elementalist with a few points in Healing. The 25 second recharge time is an eternity if it expired 10 seconds after you cast it. Kind of pointless to use the skill if it's unavailable to you over half the time. With proper equipment (faster recharge time, etc) you can actually have another Healing Seed ready before the first wears off. There have been countless battles I've been in as a monk that has sat around twiddling my thumbs as one Healing Seed did all of the work.

They're not talking about elementalists with 12 fire magic and 5 healing prayers or something. They're talking about e/mos with 12 healing prayers 10+x elemental line and 8+1 energy storage, or 12 healing prayers 10 protection prayers 8+1 energy storage.

Luggage · Jun 17, 2005, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eclair

They're not talking about elementalists with 12 fire magic and 5 healing prayers or something. They're talking about e/mos with 12 healing prayers 10+x elemental line and 8+1 energy storage, or 12 healing prayers 10 protection prayers 8+1 energy storage.

aka: use them refund points dammit!

Acan Vishnu · Jun 17, 2005, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Okay, I've been avoiding posting my thoughts the El/Mo build here for awhile as it is not the topic of the thread, but it seems as though the topic is pretty much gone..

Creating an El/Mo with the express purpose of playing like a Monk isn't really the most efficient way to heal (or protect, smiting is debatable) I've seen alot of people pointing out that an El/Mo's heals only lack the DF bonus, and that by simply outlasting a primary monk they can pull ahead in the overall healing output. But one of the things your forgetting is that an El/Mo does not have access to runes to enhance their healing potential. At 16 healing prayers and 12 divine favor the majority of healing spells from a Monk heal double that of an El/Mo with just 12 healing prayers. There are some spells that the difference is smaller than that, but playing a class combo that already has predefined limitations leeches away your adaptability, something you will miss greatly.

Entropius hit on something to an extent here;

Quote:

Originally Posted by Entropius

However, eventually the Elmo will exhaust his pool, just like the monk will, and will be stuck with the same 1.33 energy per sec as the monk. In that case the monk is better off, since her healing -- especially the 5-energy spells that she'll be casting mostly -- is more mana-efficient.

But that isn't even the full scope of the situation, if a Monk's heals are twice as effective as an El/Mo's then the advantage of a large energy pool is negated, then when you finally hit the point where both characters are drained in terms of healing output its as though a Monk has twice the energy regeneration that an El/Mo does.

And now, just to cover my butt, let me say this... I fully believe that an El/Mo can and should play the role of healer as needed. Due to the fact that some monks don't know what the hell their doing, or are utter jerks, or just aren't available there are times when I've asked an El/Mo to heal instead, or to cover healing as a secondary, it is a 100% perfectly viable way to play. Do I think that its the best way to do it? No, not really, but its been said before... That is one of the beauties of this game, it doesn't matter what I think, it matters what I enjoy. Have fun. Enjoy the game. Play as you wish. We all have our roles.